Friday, February 17, 2006

Li'l Oakie's taking the lead

The wind is jubilant today! New England weather is bizarre - we had a blizzard on Sunday. Wednesday and Thursday the temp was in the 60s. Today it is blusterous to say the least, and the weekend prediction is frigid.

As I drove home this afternoon from discipleship, I couldn't help chuckling at the leaves - in the wind, they looked to be racing each other across the street. Certain ones caught greater gusts and sped ahead of the others, and the course was quite strange: they rushed along the pavement, a road race of sorts, then abruptly turned to rush onto a lawn and jump into a garden. Silly leaves. :)

Thursday, February 09, 2006

Perhaps this will clarify some questions

This is a response to a comment and an email from a reader that may be asking things similar to what others are thinking.

Dear Pascha,

Thank you so much for your thoughts. I will try and share my heart with you - it can be easy to misinterpret each other when we don't know each other at all, really. I want to hear you and respond to what your intent is. Please forgive me if I misread your words - and let me know so I can better understand your heart.

To address your question about moderating comments and deleting those that don't "add to readers' understanding": I definitely don't mean that I only want comments that address God or spiritual thoughts... I was trying to be tactful - but perhaps I should just straight-out say, I will delete comments that have no intention of provoking intelligent thought. I don't mean that arrogantly. It's just that I receive comments that are clearly meant only to degrade or mock without actually reading what I've written. Readers who see "Christian" and automatically judge me and assume I'm stupid and narrow-minded, and so comment without taking the time to try and understand my thought or perspective.

Those are the comments that I am not going to post. If you read what I write and think about it - (please try not to get stuck on every written word - read between the lines a bit as you would with other articles) and have thoughts to add or challenge, AWESOME! My posts tend to be on what I'm learning in Scripture or in life in general - and my faith is central in that learning, but you are welcome to comment on any aspect, spiritual or otherwise.

As for your response to Ram Dass' consolation letter: I'm afraid I mis-represented Ram Dass if the impression left is that he believes the girl was murdered because her work was done. I don't think that was his thought at all, actually. He believed that she died because it was her time to die. If you are able to rent and watch the documentary "Ram Dass" you may understand him better. I definitely don't agree with his thought - there is truth in it, but our motivations are completely different. If you read the post on my blog "God's visible work among my schoolmates" you'll see more of my heart as far as where I agree with Hindu/yoga/Buddhist thought and where I totally disagree and cannot stand behind it. If you have questions regarding that, let me know.

The girl's parents were on the documentary because Dass' letter to them gave them hope and perspective and they were very grateful to him. Again, I don't believe the hope he offered them was, in its essence, a true hope. Ram Dass is not a Christian; his gods are not my God. This may sound arrogant to you - I can only say that I haven't always been a Christian. For the majority of my life I hated God - I didn't believe He existed - and I made fun of Christians and tried to make them stumble as well as I could.

But my heart has been changed, and I truly believe that only Christ offers lasting hope. I can share more of my beliefs in that regard if you wish.

Christians have differing views on what God ordains in our lives and what He allows. The Bible clearly says that He is in control of all that comes to pass. Some believe that He ordains the good and allows the bad. Honestly, I don't believe this. It is hard to swallow, and I don't fully understand it (I may never until I meet Him in heaven), but at this point my thought is that God indeed is sovereign over our every step, and our every choice. Many disagree with me on this - and I'm sure I'll receive angry comments from Christians and non-Christians - but I really don't see humans as having free will in the way it is often thought of.

This is just where I am at right now - I pray for wisdom and knowledge and to continue learning, and I may well be proven wrong. But what I see at this point in my journey is that from God's perspective, our desires and choices are not our own. From our perspective, they are. We need to live our lives with the immediate perspective that our choices are our own - that we're responsible for doing what is right and pleasing to God, according to His word (the bible). We need to work each day to be "better people." And yet, from God's perspective, He already knows each choice we will make. He has a Plan that will come to pass (because God is eternal and has no end or beginning, it has already come to pass to Him. He knows the end already.). This is where my questions come in. If God's sovereign Plan will and is happening, then how are we making free choices? From God's perspective, I don't think we are. But from our perspective, we are. Does that make sense?

I don't know how God can not author evil, and yet evil is in the world He created. Even before humankind came in to being, He had created the angels, and some of the angels turned on Him - are you familiar with how Satan came to be a fallen angel? An unanswered question is, "Where did that sinful desire in Satan come from?" I don't know. And I know of no scholar that does know.

But what I do know is that God is good, and He works all for good, including evil. Even Satan is under the sovereignty of God and cannot do anything without God's permission. And God does permit him. You may like to read the book of Job in the old testament of the bible. In case you're not familiar, Job was a man who loved God (this is before Christ. Job was a Jew - one of God's holy people under the old covenant, looking ahead to the coming of the Messiah (savior) - who Christians believe was Jesus Christ) and was blameless before Him. Satan went to God in heaven and challenged Him, saying that "yeah, Job loves You now while he has lots of children and animals and land. But You take away those things and watch: he'll curse You." (that's me paraphrasing) So God allowed Satan to kill Job's animals. Job still loved God. Then God allowed Satan to kill Job's family. Job still loved God. And one by one, God allowed Satan to take all that Job had, including his health, and Job continued to say that God gave him all, and God could take away all, but he would keep serving Him because He is good. If you're willing, read it. It's really humbling.

Does this all seem really absurd? I guess it makes sense to me because I see the point of my life and all that is in it as being here for God's purposes. It may be sufferable to me - painful, hard, seemingly making no sense - but I know without a doubt that God is good, and I am here to serve Him. I know that whatever comes to pass is the best that could come to pass, because God works things the best way.

I am thankful in all things - I am thankful for suffering that God allows me to go through (or puts me through) because it does indeed test my faith. The thing is, while God gives me trials, He is also right here holding me through those trials. He gives me peace and strength in the midst of them - such that makes no sense to those looking on. I should be falling apart with the tragedy, but I'm not because my God is holding me and loving me and keeping His promise to work all out for good. I know this closeness with Him because I've had to humble myself before Him and accept His lordship over my life. I am not my own - Jesus died a brutal death to pay for my sinfulness so that God can now look on me, and instead of seeing my sinfulness, He sees the perfection of His Son, Jesus, covering me. Does that make sense? Jesus' death is the only thing that allows me to live the life that I now live, and that I will live eternally. Because of that, I owe my life to serving and knowing Him.

This is so hard to write the whole of. There is so much that I'm not writing because it would fill pages upon pages. It's important to share, though, that this service to God that I owe is a priviledge to me. I love being a servant of God. I love that my life belongs to Him and will be used as He wishes. Because it's the best life that I could ever have! It must sound like I'm trapped - but ironically, I am free! :) There is great peace in knowing that my life is unfolding exactly as God wants it to - every minute. Yes, including the pain and suffering.

The suffering is not just bearable, but something to be grateful for, because I know God is working through it, and I know that He's working to complete me more and more until I die and am fully completed. (in heaven, I will be made like Christ - I will be sinless and perfect. That is a hope that keeps me going.) I know that this life is temporary - it is a brief moment in the spanse of eternity. I endure suffering here, knowing that it will soon be over.

Are you seeing more clearly where I'm coming from in my thoughts?

Pascha, thank you for being respectful in your comment and email. I do appreciate that. I am hurt by attacks, though I can deal with them, and they are expected, but it's refreshing to just have a conversation - if typing can be called that. :)

I hope this may have clarified some things for you. Please be gracious with me - I don't have all the answers and I have a lot of growing to do. I mean no offense to you, nor do I want you to feel like you have to be defensive, so I truly apologize if I have offended you or put you on edge in any way.

I hope I will hear from you again.

Thank you,
Amanda

Reflections on "Ram Dass"

Five themes come to mind upon learning a bit of the thoughts and life of Richard Alpert, now Ram Dass:

SUFFERING TRUTH
FAITH

IDENTITY FREEDOM

It’s so interesting that the themes followed in this order through the film, as they are linked and interdependent as such. One must know suffering to know truth; once truth is found, it compels one to have faith in the findings; faith gives an identity that will not shift with shifting roles; and this identity brings true freedom.

One of our first glimpses into the mind of Ram Dass comes through a consolation letter he wrote to the parents of a murdered daughter – strangers to whom he offered words of peace and encouragement and strength. These words began with an acknowledgement and acceptance of the “burning pain” that he told them they must feel. In honor of their daughter’s life – while understanding that she left because her work here was complete – they must feel and grieve the loss of her bodily presence. They must suffer for her. Yet at the same time, he asked them to look ahead, to see how the experience would make them more compassionate, more loving, and give them greater patience in future trials.

Maharaji ji, an Indian saint and guru of many and particularly of Ram Dass, spoke similarly to Dass, telling him that the whole of his life had been suffering, but that he had come to find joy in the midst of pain, through it even, because it brought him closer to the divine. This is truth. It is through suffering that we learn what sustains us, what our hope is in, where our joy comes from, and where we are along the journey of learning and embracing or rejecting these things. In suffering, we either collapse and fall, collapse and are lifted up higher than we could have stood on our own, or collapse not at all, but rather remain standing with strength and joy that are unexplainable except that they come from outside of ourselves. The first happens if we suffer and deny or reject the truth of our sustenance; the second if we suffer and come to know this truth through it; the third if we know truth already and have faith in its author.

Peter, a leader in the early church, wrote a letter (ca. A.D. 64-65) to other followers of Jesus Christ who were suffering through persecution in Rome. These Christians knew the truth they believed already, and had faith in that truth, but needed strengthening. It works in a cycle: suffering can bring one to a point of finding truth in order to be sustained, and it also strengthens one’s faith in that truth when trials come and the truth is proven. Peter wrote to his brethren in this letter, “In this [the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that you know] you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” If our faith needs to be tested and refined, then we will experience suffering and trials; if our faith is true, then it will be strengthened and proven through them.

When Ram Dass, then Richard Alpert, spoke of his first experiments with LSD I was really interested in what he learned about his identity. When using the drug, he said he was able to look objectively at his life and the roles he lived every day; in this “state of enlightenment” he became frightened because all of those roles, those achievements and titles, separated from his self and left him wondering what his identity was apart from them. Prior to this experience, he had security in his positions: professor, doctoral scholar; security in the Ivy League names: Tufts, Wesleyan, Harvard; security in affluence and familiar connections. Using LSD, he disassociated from those accolades.

It seems comparable to a mother who has been identified by her role as child-raiser for twenty or more years and then as her children leave to start their own adult lives, her role is changed and her identity seemingly lost. She has for so long been “child-raiser,” as Alpert had been “elite member of society,” that when her occupation is gone, so is her self. The unpredictability of one’s life-course (save the fact that it will end – this is always sure) reveals the futility of occupation and the false security that comes with investing one’s self-identification in that occupation. It is not that occupation has no value, or even little value. Particularly with mothering and teaching, these roles are of great importance – both mold lives and impact generations to come. However, the title must not be what defines the person, or they will lose their definition when the position no longer exists.

Ram Dass had a stroke later in life and for a time was identified by his condition. But he came to the realization that, again, his state of being in this life didn’t have to define his self. He then looked back on the start of his illness as having “been stroked” and sought to find the joy in this mode of suffering, how he might use it for good.

“Count it all joy, my brethren, when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing and refining of your faith produces patience, endurance, and perseverance.” These are words written by James, the brother of Jesus Christ, to Jewish followers of the Messiah who were being persecuted ca. A.D. 44-49. Our trials come to us for a purpose. Ram Dass was correct: he was stroked. It didn’t just happen to him arbitrarily. We suffer because we need to be refined, and it is when we understand that and embrace it and are willing to grow – not just deny the situation or reject it or wallow in it, but transcend it – that evil can be used for good.

Often Alzheimer’s patients are considered when thinking about identity. One may have lived a life of the highest prestige, only to slowly forget all that was gained along the way. Is this tragedy? Is the cognitive state of Ronald Reagan, in light of his life’s accolades, tragic? Is he defined only by what he added to this world – things which will perish with time, anyway? Or is there more to a person… can there be more to a person…


We cannot build our selves on the sinking sand of accomplishment or temporary status. Rather, we must – if our lives are to be of any lasting consequence – find truth and be given grace to accept and have faith in that truth. We must be identified not by our paths, but by the author and finisher of the truth and of our faith in it. Identified as such, we will know who we are and that will not change regardless of shifting occupations, fading cognition, or even death. When we are identified in this Truth, then we are finally Free.

Tuesday, February 07, 2006

Jesus is my guru; He is God

This is just a draft of thoughts yet to be compiled.
We watched a documentary on Ram Dass today in clinical, and are assigned a reflection paper. Again, thoughts that are so close, yet SO VERY FAR.
SUFFERING
TRUTH
SILENCE
FAITH
IDENTITY
FREEDOM
Using LSD to induce a "religious experience"
Alpert's early questions in his "enlightened" life:
  • Is spirituality cultural - is the means to "spiritual experience" cultural? (because there are different ways of achieving religious experiences: fasting, drugs, intense music - working up the emotions)
  • Experiementing with LSD: excited that he could take a pill and have the same experience that Moses had
  • Is identity separate from the roles lived in day to day life? Where does identity come from?

He came to find that the drug-induced "religious experience" isn't satisfying. He went to India and saw Hindus worshiping and experiencing the same ecstacy without drugs; having the same self and observational awareness - disassociative self-identity - without drugs: Is enlightenment, then, WITHIN him? He met Maharaji ji (Nirim Karoli Baba) who renamed him Ram Dass (servant of god) and became his guru.

Maharaji was/is to Ram Dass what Jesus is to me - EXCEPT (and that's a big except) Jesus is God, and lives. Maharaji was a man, and he's dead. write about this

M's followers bowed to touch his feet as he laid on the ground. Jesus washed His disciples' feet.

M knew the lives of those who came to see him before they told him. one of the speakers compared it to Jesus knowing the life of the woman at the well. M knew all the sin of RD's past life and loved him anyway - RD's first experiencing of unconditional love. RD calls M his "map" leading him to the divine. When RD asked M "how do I get in line [with the divine]?" M replied, "Serve people and feed people." Reminds me of Jesus asking Peter, "Do you love Me? Then feed My sheep." But the Christian serves and feeds out of obedience to and worship of his God, not for furtherance of the self, or greater enlightenment.

M advises RD to "always trust your inner voice." Sort of like our culture's urging to "follow your heart" - but as struck me in Voddie Baucham's sermons on love and marriage, the human heart is wicked and full of deceit; it is to be guarded and searched for hidden sin, not trusted or followed.

Ram Dass - after his stroke - came to learn that spirituality isn't about an "experience" or emotional high.

Friday, February 03, 2006

God's visible work among my school-mates

One downside to the present: I have hardly any time to blog! :) BUT this morning I am at school making up four hours that I missed on Monday (went to a funeral) and my homework is complete, so I can write again! woohoo!

God has been blowing me away as usual... I am continuously amazed at what He can do with such a broken vessel as myself - all to His glory. It seems wherever I go, He places people in my path that simply want to be loved and spoken truthfully to, and He is faithful to love them through me and gently nudge when He wishes to speak through me.

I'd begun a post last week about my clinical instructor, but never had time to finish writing it. :) It's now a bit dated, so I will start over. Each module here at School is only five weeks - not a whole lot of time to really know someone and gain their trust. But God is gracious and able.

My instructor's name is Bethany (please pray for her salvation) and she is a yogi. I never cease to see AWESOME coolness in how God uses our pasts to make us relatable to those He needs us to relate to. See, I was a yogi. And not a wannabe. :) I trained with a woman who was trained by THE yoga guru in the United States (Baron Baptiste). And I attended a weekend conference with #2 guru in the U.S., Rolf Gates (and he gave me a copy of the book he authored on the yoga lifeways). My teachers in NH wanted me to train to be a teacher, also. I loved, and still do, the "meditation in movement" and physical dance of yoga. My heart worships God in movement - I can't really explain it. But when they encouraged me to become a teacher, I began to study the philosophy behind yoga and Hinduism.

My body took to yoga naturally, and my attitude and lifeway - at first glance - appear to mesh with the yogic attitude and lifeway. The pieces of truth in yogic and Hindu thought that I lived before them are Truths in God's Word, and so to their eyes I was a perfect fit. But the thing is, our essences are completely different, and in conflict with each other. A yogi's lifeway is founded in self-awareness and being one with the consciousness of all beings; my lifeway is founded in Jesus Christ and being one with the Father through Him by the power of the Spirit. My lifeway leads to Life eternal; the yogi's leads to death. The resulting evidences have similarities, but the motivating essences are dangerously incompatible.

Within the first few days of classes, Bethany made her beliefs and lifestyle known - sharing with us "profound words" from Buddhist philosophers and contemporary yogis. I wondered how I might eventually speak to her about Jesus, as the people firmly grounded in "good lies" are usually most closed to the truth. She took a liking to me, however: nicknamed me "Sunshine" and appreciated what I added to class discussion. Still, a few weeks went by without any nudging from the Spirit to respond to her favorite quotations, even though they could all either be expounded upon or contradicted by the ever more profound words of our Creator.

Then last week she began to open to us, sharing more personal experiences and asking us our input. She told us about her boyfriend, a man twelve years her senior - also a yogi - and her insecurities and assurances within their relationship. We had a general conversation about relationships and ages within them - about compatible maturity (spiritual and emotional) being of importance more than a number. She asked us if we had boyfriends (we're all women in class - ranging in age from 18 to mid-30's). We actually went around the room sharing. A single 19 year old with a baby, 24 year old beginning a divorce, 20 year old dating a 39 year old "loser - I always date losers," my friend Terry who's 25 and single, a mid-30 year old divorced with a daughter and single, a 30 year old divorced with a son and daughter and with a "significant other," and me.

"I've chosen not to date." I just want to be friends with the men that come into my life, so that we can get to really know each other and trust each other. And if there comes a point where we DO know each other WELL and trust each other and being together forever makes sense, and we love each other romantically, then we'll get married.

I believe that was a bit of a shocker. :) haha. I'm 22 and I've chosen not to have a boyfriend. Ever. It is a bit unusual. And yet, like a good yogi, Bethany accepted that mindset and said, "See, that's why you can't put people in boxes. You never know where they're at in their thinking, and what's right for one person may be completely different from what's right for another." or something like that.

Beth mentioned that she'd taken a couple of years away from dating to sort herself out because she'd kept getting into unhealthy relationships, perhaps similar to the ones my classmates are or have been in. I shared that I'd been learning the importance of knowing my own identity before I become part of a couple so that my husband and I can complement each other rather than rely on each other for completeness. Of course, that identity is in Christ, and only He can complete us. But I didn't share that, yet.

A connection was made in that class. We were no longer just students and a teacher. And I felt a nudging.

After class, I asked Bethany if she'd ever studied with Rolf Gates. I thought that would resonate with her, and it did. She lit up and said excitedly, "See, I knew it! I said to myself (she always talks like this when she's excited about something :) it's cute). I said to myself, 'That Amanda is in a different space.' It all makes sense now." And I said, "You're right, I am in a different space. But I'm not a yogi, I'm a Christian." And I talked about studying yoga and the philosophy and studying the similarities between that and Christianity. But I didn't go into depth. And then I recommended taking class with Rolf if she ever gets the chance because he's an amazing teacher. And it was time to go.

Other conversations followed that class into the cafeteria - with Tracy (the 30-something with a little girl), and Terry (my single 25 yr old friend)... questions that were raised from earlier. There is so much I could share.

Tracy wanted to know more about yoga and my beliefs and how they were similar and different. So I shared. Terry is a believer, but admittedly has walked away from the Lord. I'll write more about her because it's just so amazing. I'm so grateful to be a part of these unfolding stories!

This week, God revealed more to my classmates and Bethany. I will write the continuance in a separate post.

Please keep me in prayer, and those in my life (I know they come and go. This time is so precious.): that God would work mightily, unhindered by any sin on my part. That He would reveal Himself in full truth and with effective grace to save the souls of His own. Thank You, Father, that I may love and teach and share and learn from these women. I am so priviledged and so thankful. May You give Life to my friends and make them my sisters. May You draw Terry back to Yourself and overwhelm her with Love. Oh, Lord, free her from any entanglements and be the only Man she desires. Be enough for her, Jesus. I love these women, Lord, and I want nothing more than for them to love You. Your will be done, as always. I pray in the name of my Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.


Thanks be to Curtis in Seafood

ok, Curtis. I'll play along. But I'm not tagging anyone. If you, readers, wish to share likewise, feel free to leave your responses in comments.

Four jobs I've had:

1. Letting out and cleaning up after Mrs. Goegle's six terriers when I was 10 - for $1.50 a day. One of them was old - Willie - and I carried him into the yard like a baby. Mrs. G got quite a kick out of that. The early money I saved working for her bought my first pair of pointe shoes for ballet. It took me just under two months.

2. I collected carriages at the grocery store when I turned 16 - my record was 12 carriages at once. I almost lost control of them. haha. That's where I met my highschool boyfriend who was a cashier.

3. I made and sold popcorn (along with sodas and candy) at a movie theater - that was such a fun job. We had only a cash drawer to work out of, so we had to add up the prices in our heads and make change the old fashioned way. :) And get their order together with a smile and an "Enjoy the movie!" I loved it!

4. I worked at St. John Boutique in Manhattan. Cashiering, wrapping gifts with fancy ribbons and bows, answering phones, tracking shipments, placing and receiving orders with other boutiques (they are international, though we only traded sales nationally) over the phone, following up with clients to make sure they were satisfied with their orders... stock checks, serving at the bar to the husbands. :) haha! THAT cracked me up. We served free "perrier" and sodas and champagne. Yes, it was THAT kind of boutique. :) I loved being behind the scenes, making sure everything ran smoothly. And I especially loved working over the phone with other boutiques - they appreciated my obsessive-compulsive tendencies because they knew I'd take care of them well. :)

5. (I know, it only said four) I worked as an assistant teacher in a room full of two year olds for a year and a half. I LOVE TWO YEAR OLDS. And all kiddos, but that age is especially fond to me. They go from toddling babies to complete-sentence-speaking, potty-going little people all within a year. Yes, they learn to say NO! and push all sorts of boundaries, and many go through biting phases, but that's all workable. They're curious and excited and affectionate, and once trained well they follow directions and are... GREAT.

Four movies I could watch over and over:

1. The Four Feathers. I have watched it over and over :) And will continue to.
2. Forrest Gump
3. Amelie
4. Braveheart

Four books I could read over and over:

1. Don't Waste Your Life (John Piper)
2. Passion and Purity (Elisabeth Elliot)
3. Ender's Game
4. Currently reading over and over: 1Peter

Four places I have lived: (I guess four must be THE number)

1. New Hampshire (I grew up here, and now live here again)
2. Bronx, NY (after high school, I lived in the Belmont neighborhood for a year)
3. Langley, British Columbia, Canada (I went to Trinity Western University for Fall semester, 2003)
4. I've spent summers at dance schools in Carlisle, Pennsylvania; Torrington, Connecticut; Durham, North Carolina.

Four places I've been on vacation:

1. Granby, Colorado (my roommate from TWU, Stacy, lived there. She's now married in B.C.) My dormies roadtripped down for spring break, and I flew out to meet them.
2. Colton, Oregon; drove to Vancouver, B.C. (flew out to stay with my sister Karissa and her fam, and then drove to Stacy's wedding)
3. Went to Disney World in Orlando when I was 10.
4. Oh! Washington, D.C. when I was 14. That was SO awesome. I loved that city. I love architecture and history, and parks. I remember lots of tulips. :)

Four favorite foods:

Only FOUR??! :) I love food. Good, healthy food, that is. Well, and ice cream. :)

1. lasagna (with spinach mixed into the ricotta, and sauteed veggies in the sauce. Lots of garlic. Whole wheat noodles. mmmm
2. Homemade bread, fresh out of the oven
3. Ice cream, of course. Mint chocolate chip. I recently discovered Turkey Hill frozen yogurt. SO GOOD!
4. chai tea with milk and honey

Four places I'd like to be:

1. Home with my Lord - FOREVER!! Are you coming today, Lord?
2. In Thailand with Karissa
3. In Chicago with Luke
5. In Abbotsford with Stacy - seeing her about to have her first baby! (she's eight months pregnant :) ) And stay there to help her for a few months.
6. In Pasadena with Julie and James (my roommate in da Bronx and her awesome husband)
7. you know, I am glad to be right where I am. I miss all my friends far away, but God has me HERE, and He is using me here. I love my church family here and my new friends and my family with all our differences... I am excited for where God may take me (though I have no idea where!), but that will come in time. Truly, what better place to be than where our Sovereign, Loving Father has brought us.

That's all I have to say about that.